Coping: With Sustainable Populations

Thinking through the Progress Problem  is our breakfast special this morning.  The other day in a post, I made a remark that bothered one of our readers.  We’ll just call him Dave but he’s a great guy and asks a very intelligent on-point question:

“George where do you come to the conclusion that the Earth can only Support 200 – 500 million people?”

Honestly, it goes back to one of those bothersome “chicken and egg” questions of economics.  Which arose first:  Human development into a hyper-industrialized resource gobbler OR money?  I scurried to the data to look.  Things do change and at my age memory ain’t what it…uh…where were we?  Oh yeah…

(Continues below)

 

One of the first things I did was looked at the historical data.  Here’s a dandy place to find it:  Max Roser and Esteban Ortiz-Ospina (2017) – ‘World Population Growth’. Published online at OurWorldInData.org. Retrieved from: https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth/

What you’ll find is this little gem – which is ideal for this discussion:

It may be a bit hard to see on a phone, but the blue areas are the human pop and the red line is the rolling Annual Growth Rate.

Sure, you can look at the sharp rise in the kneed of the curve there (around 1900) and figure well, global pop was probably sustainable at those levels.  But was it – really?

Remember, this was before electric lights (generally), before radio, before indoor plumbing most places, before public health, clean water, antibiotics, and not much in the way of cars, no gas stations to speak of, lots of horse poop, and…well sustainable but at what effort?

If that’s how you like it, then sure, Dave, I would have to agree that 1900’s estimate of the GlobalPop (1.559 billion) might be sustainable.  But we have to be more precise in what we mean by sustainable.

It would be seductive to think “Gee, if we all had iPhones and did wall gardening and hydroponics and solar…yeah…that would be sustainable.”

No.

This is not the case and I’ll show you why:  Think of “lighting off humans” as a process  much like burning a candle.  You can have a perpetual flame on the candle only as long as you don’t burn supporting infrastructure (think of it as the wax).

Still, you can do some amazing stuff with small populations.  The Pyramids, for example went up in the 2630-2611 period – that’s B.C.  Global population?  A mere 27-million people back then, and that was world-wide per the reliable efforts of the U.S. Census Bureau over here.

What made it sustainable was likely the “lost technologies” – much of which has been collected by people like Robert Nelson over at www.rexresearch.com who I mentioned Tuesday.

There are footnotes and asterisks all over the place, sure:  Races of extraterrestrial giants – the Genesis 6 Giants – Steve Quayle has been writing about ’em for years.  But there’s more than bigger people back then (men of renown, sure).  There’s the lost levitation using sound as was done by Tibetan masters.  Probably Egyptians, too. But you should know of these things by now.

The environmental types might argue that

A more elevated level of life would be possible – perhaps something 1980’s-like.  “If we just all work together right now, we can all survive.”  Sounds good, don’t get me wrong.  But the people saying this have mostly never worked the dirt a day in their lives  They talk a great game, but they have no “hands on” appreciation for the facts.

Oh, and the other fact:  Global sociology has us screwed.  Brazil and Yemen are out-screwing the West so the future pop will be largely under-education and highly religonized and radicalized.  Fun times?  Not quite.

The problem with “progress” is that it involves two costs to be considered.  (Warning: MBA think here):  There’s a development and deployment cost and then there’s a different cost for ongoing operations.

If you’re keeping the mongrel hordes at bay?  Higher costs.

When we talk about “sustainability” what do we speak of?  Are we looking for further advancement and a higher standard of living?  This comes down to “less time working” for most folks.

The other day, OM2‘s son and I were putting up a pipe and rebar rack alongside the tractor lean-to off the storage building.  “What’s this?  Keep or toss?

He threw over a 2-foot high roll of plastic chicken wire.  It had been out in the Texas sun for five-years and it was falling apart.

Point?

When you discuss “sustainable” just what the hell do you really mean?

Sure, we can leave all the skyscrapers alone as they are, but within 200 years, they will be falling down.  With no electricity (we went “low tech, sustainable” right?) no one will service the roof.  It will leak.  Plastic gasketing on windows will fail, glass will fall.  Rain will come in.  The3n rust, then fall-down and go boom.

Might take 500 years…but it will happen.  Absent cheap electricity to run the elevators, is anything over three stories really “sustainable?”  When you get to my age, only one story looks sustainable.

You may not remember the pill box hat-wearing elevator operator Robert, who ran the elevator inside the Smith Tower when the ACLU was there in the 1970’s, but it was a fine old building even then:

“During a trip to Seattle in 1909, (Lyman Cornelius) Smith planned to build a 14-story building in Seattle. His son, Burns Lyman Smith, convinced him to build instead a much taller skyscraper to steal the crown from rival city Tacoma‘s National Realty Building as the tallest west of the Mississippi River. Construction began in 1911. Although Smith did not live to see it, the building was completed in 1914 to a height of 143 m (469 ft) from curbside to the top of the pyramid,[8] with a pinnacle height of 159 m (522 ft).[5] Smith Tower opened to the public on July 4, 1914. Over 4,000 Seattleites rode to the 35th floor on opening day. The Chinese Room, whose name was retired following the 2016 renovation, derived from the carved teak ceiling and blackwood furniture that adorned the room on opening. The room was furnished by the last Empress of China, Cixi.[11] Furnishings include the famous Wishing Chair. The chair incorporates a carved dragon and a phoenix, which, when combined, portends marriage. According to folklore, any wishful unmarried person who sits in it would be married within a year. The legend came true for Smith’s daughter, who married in the Chinese Room itself.”

Missed the chance to sit in the Wishing Chair, did you?

Impressive as the Smith Tower was – it was the major feature of the Seattle skyline when my dad and I went fishing on Elliott Bay – the destruction of sustainability was already well underway.  It was just becoming more evident on the waterfront.

When the city was young, the timbers used were cedar – but when those ran out, there was a materials change to Douglas Fir…but that required creosote.  So up popped the Nettleton Mill.

Go count power poles sometime.  Then explain the dance between deforestation and rural power.

The story of water quality of the Duwamish River in Seattle is instructive because, as was reported in 1945, there was already a major water pollution problem evolving:

“South of the Spokane St. Bridge and immediately behind the U. S.
Coast Guard Base is the Pacific Coast Forge Company, manufacturer of
nuts and bolts. This plant formerly discharged some oil from cutting
machines into the waterway. The U. S. Coast Guard notified them to
discontinue this practice. The oil is now directed into a large sand
pit on the property which, at the present time, serves as an adequate
filter. However, in a few years this sand will probably become saturated
with the oil and the waste will again seep into the waterway. A considerable volume of acid waste also originates in this plant. In the
galvanizing plant the contents of an acid tank of about 875 cubic feet
capacity is dumped every two weeks; the waste liquid goes into the
above mentioned sand pit. Another acid containing tank holding about
58 cubic feet of solution is used for dipping wire. This tank is dumped
every four to six weeks and the waste acid goes into an underground
settling box, then drains to the waterway. The local sewage from some
150 persons also enters the River.”

 The whole survey may be found here – and it’s a short read, all of 34 pages – but it underscores my contention that at least insofar as one local series of estuaries – Puget Sound in Washington State – had passed “sustainable prior to the close of 1945.

The salmon were still great – they went up north.  Before Fukushima.  But the sole?  Maybe you didn’t want to eat the one with the golf-ball sized tumor.

Remember, from my perspective, if we’re going to talk “sustainable” then what we’re talking is no resource depletion/degradation while at the same time building more than enough for current operations and maintenance.

There are better-studied discussions than this, of course.  But do consider  that once industrialization arrives, deforestation arrives shortly thereafter, land the race to desertification is only a matter of time.  Centuries?

If we’re lucky.  But remember that of the Middle East was once forest lands, the Egyptians had a solid agricultural deal going for a long while, and in the end, England was forced to develop coal-fired steam generation because the land had been largely deforested.

It’s why my ancestors in Scotland had taken to burning peat.  So dear was wood.

The long, but honest answer for Dave is this:  I looked at the data, concluded as good a point as any to make the sustainable population was from the deforestation of England to “feed the mills” and went from there.

“The massive use of charcoal on an industrial scale in Early Modern Europe was a new type of consumption of western forests; even in Stuart England, the relatively primitive production of charcoal has already reached an impressive level. Stuart England was so widely deforested that it depended on the Baltic trade for ship timbers, and looked to the untapped forests of New England to supply the need. Each of Nelson’s Royal Navy war ships at Trafalgar (1805) required 6,000 mature oaks for its construction. In France, Colbert planted oak forests to supply the French navy in the future. When the oak plantations matured in the mid-19th century, the masts were no longer required because shipping had changed.”

If you want to pick a starting date?  How about the first lick of British  industrial heroin, coal, then?

“In the 13th century there are records of coal digging in Durham[10] and Northumberland,[11] Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, Staffordshire, Lancashire, the Forest of Dean and North[12] and South Wales. At this time coal was referred to as sea cole, a reference to coal washed ashore on the north east coast of England from either the cliffs or undersea outcrops. As the supply of coal on the surface became used up, settlers followed the seam inland by digging up the shore. Generally the seam continued underground, encouraging the settlers to dig to find coal, the precursor to modern operations.[

And from coal came coke and from coke comes steel, and from that battleships and the profits of war followed.

The key, to my way of thinking, is population density and that, in a nutshell is why I am attracted to the 200- 500-million number.  600 AD to perhaps 1700 AD.

You get much past there and you’re into deforestation, addiction to fossil fuels, and sustainable?  Only if you have a plan to replant tree-for-tree and come up with an effective way to plant coal.

Great question, Dave.

Write when you get rich,

George@ure.net


Comments

Coping: With Sustainable Populations — 29 Comments

  1. The Egyptian Dr. Ibrahim Karem, BioGeometry expert, author of ‘Back to a Future for Mankind’ said in a talk (might be on youtube) that the pyramids were at least 35,000 years old and probably older but that’s only how far they researched it. He based that on studying the statues and such that they’ve unearthed that showed various kings and queens that represented the different dynasties and from that they could map the timelines of the dynasties. Carl Munck also has some good youtubes covering the mathematical secrets behind many/most of the pyramids, stone formations, mounds, etc. spread throughout the word-some good stuff from that dude. Carbon dating is not at all foolproof and I’d follow the money as to who was funding the various carbon dating ‘reports’ we’ve been provided, such as the Shroud of Turin, etc. If someone tells me ‘science’ says this or that, I ask them ‘are these the same scientists who worked on the global warming scam?’

  2. phew great subject George..

    I read a report last year or the year before.( I couldn’t find it today) that basically stated that that year was the first that in history that the earth would not be sustainable for food production.
    on average with prime farming real estate it takes approximately one acre per person.. the tillable acres world wide is 970 billion.. unfortunately this doesn’t take into account for land that even though it is tillable cannot produce adequately.. in some area’s an acre will support a cow in others it takes ten acres and then there is weather and drought..
    Now water.. 2.5 percent of the earths water is fresh water. Not to mention the pollution of that water take china.. because they don’t have the (tree huger ) legislation’s in place. (corporations and manufacturers openly dump waste.. we did to at one time..I can easily remember having bosses tell me to rinse barrels in the ditch).. china because it has some of the most polluted water in the world buys bottled water.. I once read an article that said because of the Chinese consumption of bottled water from the us.. the great lakes went down in level by four inches.. ( want to get worried.. now look at that can of pea’s or peaches on the shelf.. it was canned in china.. did they use the unpolluted water or just take it out of the tap and since we only check what one or two percent of incoming goods containers.. was this tested..)
    I think that is why we are seeing the new Water baron’s.. in the past Oil was the money today it is quickly changing to water.. when that happens and the us dollar becomes the water dollar instead of the petro dollar then cheaper forms of energy can be released to the public.. like hydrogen oil reclamation.. ( if the public knew that oil could be reclaimed for pennies the dollar would collapse which we cannot have love em or hate em the oil companies are important to all of us..)
    Now consider this.. we are building.. look how many new buildings we have going up.. then the repairs on the old.. how much concrete goes down for these buildings. I was just commenting yesterday about how many new homes and one day not that long ago they were corn and wheat fields… and unfortunately they plant these homes on tillable prime farm land.. only in places like california do they build homes on land that isn’t farm land like cliffs and in fault area.. waste.. how much garbage does the earth produce.. when I worked waste the estimated amount was four pounds a day.. which holds pretty close.
    we need the recycling we don’t understand radioactive material well enough to utilize it in the form of energy and we definately don’t know how to dispose of it properly so we should be leaving it alone.. we have an endless source of oil and coal to support us with proper reduction of the harmful waste I think we would be ok environmentally.
    https://archive.epa.gov/epawaste/nonhaz/municipal/web/png/2012_totl_msw_gen_fig4_lg.png. ( consider this.. everything is energy)
    Weather.. boy that is a toss up..
    I think george you are right what is written on the georgia guidestones is probably more right than we want to admit.
    http://www.rense.com/general16/georgiaguidestones.htm
    I think that is why no one in power is really not as concerned about the GMO of food.. since everyone is trying to figure out how to produce more with less..
    as for financial.. out of every ten there is roughly one that is receiving food stamps in the usa just ten years ago that figure was one in fifteen.. in the third world countries there is approximately a billion people starving..
    there is a great book.. called the sixth extinction level.. https://ia801201.us.archive.org/10/items/TheSixthExtinction-AnUnnaturalHistory-English/TheSixthExtinction.pdf
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9gHuAwxwAs

    unfortunately by our vanity.. I think we are the ones in the sixth extinction level.. and because of our ignorance and greed we won’t do anything to stop it.
    now..take the aid’s conspiracy theory.. that aid’s was a virus constructed as a form of biological warfare.. then tested in africa to reduce population growth is it true who knows.. we won’t ever know the truth.. where in less than two years one in three contacted the disease..now for a future conspiracy theory will there be a similar virus to reduce population growth released in the future.the problem and the part that makes me think no.. is because once the genie is let out of the bottle it is impossible to control.. I read a news clip a few weeks ago where CRE went airborne and is more like a flu in china.. that would do it.. one person came to the us what five or six years ago and now its in all fifty states.. fifty percent die right away twenty percent linger and thirty percent don’t even know they have it till they get sick..and the us doesn’t treat it like other countries do.. nightmare in the making with that one.. of course all of that is just my honest opinion..

  3. So you think your going to get out of the microbiological Petri Dish I think not, You will war,fight,steal,lie and cheat for all the resources in the dish Then when the resources are just about gone then it really gets ugly. the few that are left will repeat same cycle natures way.

  4. I suggest reading “Introduction to Permaculture” before concluding that 500,000,000 is the top number. The problem, as always, is governance. All civilizations, perhaps excepting the Minoans, collapse due to the overreaching of the power structure. Typically taxation, migration and warfare eat them from the inside out.

    There is a chance this time to circumvent the process due to the Internet allowing various means of bypassing the power elite.

    How would this look? First, we would build local artificial marshlands and divert our sewage through them, using cattails to extract essentially everything from the effluent. Result? More calories from fermenting the cattail roots into ethanol than we currently burn in all forms of liquid fuel. Permanent local jobs and local fuel supplies. The “effluent” would be purer than all but the most pristine glacial waters, and would be fitter to drink than any local utility water system today. The pharmaceuticals, nitrates, metals and other chemicals would be trapped and concentrated. They could be neutralized and/or recycled using off the shelf plasma garbage incineration, which produces more energy than it consumes. The remaining “waste” would be used to improve soils. Waterways across the country would return to preindustrial water quality, and aquatic life would be spared the current pollution. Potable water systems would require far less from wells and waterways.
    Next project: Take green sand or equivalent and apply it to all farmland as a mineral enhancement. This is what ice ages do, but simpler to deal with. Remember, we would be recycling minerals from sewage as well. Then we take biomass and make gigaton or more of loma prieta. Maybe in the same plasma incinerators. It is a special kind of charcoal which cause soil to become almost completely self sustaining for hundreds of years after it is applied, including fixing nitrogen, supporting soil microbes, and holding water better. Fertilizers will largely become artifacts of the past and food will be vastly better to consume. Roundup will be replaced by weeding robots, already under development in several institutions. These robots can also be programmed to kill vermin and selected insects. Probably solar powered. Planting and harvesting robots were publically demonstrated last week.

    Next: Energy. Recall that we would have enough alcohol to run all our vehicles. But maybe we would rather use it to generate local electricity at night and when the wind is not blowing. Maybe we store it for short Winter days. At any rate, with both sodium ion batteries and aluminum/graphite batteries now demonstrated, there is no possible shortage of the critical materials. Solar is competitive with petroleum already, but imagine when most cars and buses are electric and affordable.

    The next steps are culturally harder. We need to create incentives to build things that last and assiduously recycle as much as possible. If a subway train can go millions of miles with infrequent maintenance, and a semi rig can go a million miles on one engine and transmission, then cars could be built that go even further, because cars are lighter. Polyurethane tires go 100,000 miles easily. I wrote to the inventor, and he said no tire company would buy the tech because it would lower sales of tires, eventually. I have a refrigerator that is 50 years old and works well. New ones scarcely last 10 years. My first business computers lasted 12 years between hard drives and were retired due to Y2K issues. I am told such long lasting “enterprise grade” computers are still for sale – at a price.

    Hardest: Population control. The short story “The Marching Morons” sums up the problem well. But while researching birth control when my son turned 16 (not taught in schools here due to religious overreach) an Alibaba ad popped up, selling IUDs. IUDs and implants are the ONLY birth control methods, short of surgical ones, which are 99%+ effective. The Pill is 91% overall, and almost ineffective with teenagers, who normally don’t use it correctly. Imagine a world where you had a 10% or worse chance of being in a serious injury accident every year. The outcry would be deafening. But those in power profit from a broken birth control system in many many ways, including generating dependent voters.

    The price on Alibaba for a 12 year lifespan IUD, in lots of 100 or more, was $2.00 each. There’s your problem. Abortion providers like the pill in low doses, or condoms (20% failure rate per year – how “safe” is that?), because it generates abortion business. Prudes actually think teens will have less sex without birth control, despite endless studies that show the opposite. Teen pregnancy devastates society and basically lowers everyone’s prosperity, except the profiteers the top, who thrive on all the messes we know how to clean up. For the price of a bomber, I expect we could develop a 100% effective, easy to tolerate, pain free IUD, and GIVE THEM AWAY. What is better? Another bomber, or solving unwanted and unplanned pregnancy? In Washington, it’s clearly the bomber.

    So I propose that we expect TPTB to continue to betray us and that we spend our time and energy both trying to survive and thrive in the mess they make, but also repeating, often, the mantras of know long term solutions. BTW, importing culturally and mentally retrograde refugees from overseas hellholes is nether sustainable or workable. Their problems will need to be dealt with in situ. The math doesn’t add up to ignore who and what they are in immigration debates. But the math is not something most people do. Another critical problem….

      • Do I have to do remedial reading class again?

        Read the whole paragraph of what I said.. FMTT you sure you’re not an SJW? It was in the context of “Things passed stability in the 1700’s fergawdsake. jeezus…effing read.

    • Thank you for your well thought out potential solutions Douglas.

      Please elaborate on “loma prieta- special charcoal”

      Thank you for your time & intention.

      Thank you George for all you do & share!

  5. The fundamental driver for population growth has been the ability to increase production of food, shelter, etc. Whether via the bow & arrow, the plow and the horse collar, or by coal & oil.

    But there’s a fundamental aspect of our current situation that isn’t talked about much in “nice circles”.

    Much of the global population growth in the past 50 years has occurred in places that, in isolation, are not self-sustaining at anywhere near their current population levels. Africa and the Middle East specifically. (Possibly India, & parts of SE Asia, I’m not up to speed there and I’m unsure of South America.) Their populations are supported on a western technological base they cannot reproduce or maintain internally.

    So when the economies of the west blow up and internal and external conflict ensues among the “developed world”, the dependent countries will be on their own, either partially or totally. Current conflicts in these areas are not due to food issues per se, conflicts broke supply chains and then hunger ensued.

    The “dependent areas” are going to experience drastic depopulation if they are disconnected from their 1st world supply lines.

    By contrast, the USA & Canada could be self-sustaining in food, energy and most materials with our current population. There would be a severe cutback in “non-needs”, but famine and mass death would not need to occur.

    But I do not expect the collapse of “debtworld” to be gentle or peaceful, so yeah, a big drop in population for everyone is the way to bet.

    I’m getting a bit old to play Dark Ages version 2.0, but I’ll give it a go if need be.

  6. I’m reminded of the panic in 18th century England when all the experts, using the best available data and methods, predicted mass starvation of the general population due to over population and destruction of farm land.

    You might notice that didn’t happen.

    Also, you might want to consider that if you had been born into that time period you would most likely not have survived childhood (there was a good reason people had as many children as possible!) and if you had survived, any number of other things would likely have killed you by the ripe old age of 30. If you succeeded in lasting that long you would have likely buried several wives from child birth fever. If you were well off you might have buried them beside many of your children.

    Bottom line: The world is not over populated, just mismanaged.

    I am only slightly older than you. As a young child my father was the sole survivor of a diphtheria ward at one of the “best” hospitals in the country. A ward with over 100 children. 30 years later some doctors learned to wash their hands and such things began to improve. Slowly.

    Today, you have more energy available to you, without leaving your Half-Vast Acres, than the kings of most countries in the time frame you are advocating, yet you seem to do less with it. Sure, you are more comfortable, but what do you actually do with that energy besides grumble about how things were better in the good-old-days?
    Hint: Things were not better, just different.

    In the past you advocated a book concerning the sudden appearance of an inventor. I suggest you take a few days off and reread it.

  7. George

    Are any of the population predictions taking account of the effects of technology? In particular the effect that would be felt if the Star Trek level technology being held back from the public sphere gets unleashed. That would gives us a Type 2 civilization in short order and cause populations to decline as people no longer have many children to support them in old age.

  8. George,

    I don’t know whether you’ve discussed him before, but you might want to look at the Wikipedia entry for T. Robert Malthus – an early scholar and ‘original thinker’ on the topic of population control – who himself, might have been considered ‘defective’ as he had a ‘cleft lip and palate’.

    So who’s to choose who the ‘best’ people are?

  9. One thing that needs to be kept in mind, this thing we call humanity is not the first life experiment on this planet we call earth and it will not be the last! In the aspect of 4.5 billion years mans time here is a little more than a blink of an eye

    • Not to argue with your math there but for most of ‘mankind”s history’ we’ve been either hunter-gatherer’s or farmers – not much when you are looking for intellectuals of any kind. We didn’t have the time for ‘deep thought’.

      • The brain may be lit up but the technology is sorely lacking – my favorite story regarding the difference between thought and actual life is from one of the Viking sagas (I think):

        The scene is a great hall where the local king is feasting with a large hunk of meat roasting on a spit, all the people eating, drinking – throwing bones and whatnot on the floor for the dogs etc. etc. And the local bishop is in attendance, a thoughtful cleric – suddenly a bird flies into the hall from the outside, where there is a violent snowstorm – and flies out again . . .

        The king asks, “What is the meaning of this?” And the bishop replies that this is like life – we do not know what came before, we know not what will come after – but for a short time there is warmth, light, and companionship . . .

        Probably never happened, but it is a very good story! Intelligent thought does not require technology, but technology does require intelligent thought . . . and hungry people think of getting their next meal, rather than much else.

    • I like the concept espoused in the recent incarnation of Battlestar Galactica, “This has all happened before, and will all happen again”. The story line showed that human civilization had reached a climax (similar to where we are now), blown itself up and started over from scratch. The Vedas speak of repeating cycles of creation and destruction which makes sense to me. Then there are the anachronistic archaeological finds written up by Michael Cremo indicating human activity here tens of millions of years ago. George’s comments indicate to me that we are approaching the destruction phase climax. Say bye-bye everybody.

  10. Some facts ain’t solid thus they affect conclusions. The pyramids are 10,000 years old per Edgar Cayce. Just waiting for science to catch up.

    • Show me Cayce’s degree in carbon dating or anything more than self-claims (I hate people who make predictions and then score their own report card…they (and lame-brain followers) become a feedback loop reinforcing lunacy.
      Not saying Cayce is wrong, but where’s an archeological second source?

      • Sphinx water erosion hypothesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphinx_water_erosion_hypothesis

        Robert M. Schoch, a geologist and associate professor of natural science at the College of General Studies at Boston University… According to Schoch, the area has experienced a mean annual rainfall of approximately one inch (2.5 cm) since the Old Kingdom (c. 2686 – 2134 BC), such that, since Egypt’s last period of significant rainfall ended between the late fourth and early 3rd millennium BC,[6] the Sphinx’s construction must date to the 6th or 5th millennium BC.

        There are actually a number of “second expert sources”.

        Do you want to hear my theory on why a world constantly in contention gets nowhere and will self-destruct… maybe like the former high-civilization once inhabiting this planet and particularly Egypt. Humans have a tendency to disagree on everything, even the basics… like the laws of physics.

        Engineers today could not design and build The Great Pyramid. And the stones at Baalbek cannot be moved today and remain where they are, because no machinery on Earth can lift them. Yet somehow, they transported themselves from a quarry four miles away…

        However, despite the glaringly obvious, like tons of engineered rock constructed by a people who had not yet discovered the basic rudiments of math like Pi, we can seek Third Party Experts with all-kinds of lettered extensions added to their names and keep the debate going endlessly.

        “Conspiracy Theory” flourishes because there will always be one party that will disagree with the mediating chosen expert; and then that disgruntled party will seek another lettered Third Party Expert. So, besides mentioning Robert Schock’s work and pointing out the obvious, I am sure you can find some “lame-brain” experts that will support your doubts and counter my lunacy… And then we can all stay stupid.

      • Thank you, GA, I actually introduced you and George. I also understood all you wrote and Edgar Cayce has given so much detail on Ancient Egypt and modern man has so disrespected any alternative info, ideas, and research, I tend not to follow up. But your reply is a good reminder of where we (society) find ourselves right now, dancing the two-step and the waltz. Thank you.

      • George, G.A., Ask –

        Given the VERY probable fact that Zahi Hawass has been covering up innumerable finds in his back yard one can, at best, say that he’s simply managing the findings to better time their unveiling for his personal promotion. This certainly isn’t to say something that doesn’t fit the acceptable dogma of current archaeology isn’t suppressed as has been demonstrated time and again. The cave of the birds comes to mind here.

        It strikes me as more than strange that some kind – ANY kind – of organic material has not been discovered squeezed in between the blocks of the Giza pyramids that could be carbon dated. Wood from rolling blocks, somebody that “just couldn’t wait” or someone’s digit … or some other member, or a tzitzit even! But, then again, if it didn’t fit the current dogma would it be reported???

  11. @ George
    Seems someone before you agrees with your population control number

    THE MESSAGE OF THE GEORGIA GUIDESTONES

    1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature.
    2. Guide reproduction wisely – improving fitness and diversity.
    3. Unite humanity with a living new language.
    4. Rule passion – faith – tradition – and all things with tempered reason.
    5. Protect people and nations with fair laws and just courts.
    6. Let all nations rule internally resolving external disputes in a world court.
    7. Avoid petty laws and useless officials.
    8. Balance personal rights with social duties.
    9. Prize truth – beauty – love – seeking harmony with the infinite.
    10. Be not a cancer on the earth – Leave room for nature – Leave room for nature.

    Limiting the population of the earth to 500 million will require the extermination of nine-tenths of the world’s people. The American Stonehenge’s reference to establishing a world court foreshadows the current move to create an International Criminal Court and a world government. The Guidestones’ emphasis on preserving nature anticipates the environmental movement of the 1990s, and the reference to “seeking harmony with the infinite” reflects the current effort to replace Judeo-Christian beliefs with a new spirituality.

    The message of the American Stonehenge also foreshadowed the current drive for Sustainable Development. Any time you hear the phrase “Sustainable Development” used, you should substitute the term “socialism” to be able to understand what is intended. Later in this syllabus you will read the full text of the Earth Charter which was compiled under the direction of Mikhail Gorbachev and Maurice Strong. In that document you will find an emphasis on the same basic issues: control of reproduction, world governance, the importance of nature and the environment, and a new spirituality. The similarity between the ideas engraved on the Georgia Guidestones and those espoused in the Earth Charter reflect the common origins of both.

    • Unveiled in 1980, the guidestones are actually located in rural Nuberg, Georgia, paid for by the mysterious ‘R.C. Christian’ and finished/constructed by the Elberton Granite Finishing Co. The motive for construction is still unknown, but Google them and enjoy the various theories.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.